Mason Munden
▶ Godbound
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

More rules clarifications. I'd request answers from all but those who are already involved in the discussion elsewhere. In context, this is a discussion between multiple GMs on how to adjudicate a particular situation.

Topic: "Can Welcoming the Dusk's darkness be dispelled by anything short of a divine gift, miracle of a Word, or Sunder Any Sorcery?"

My stance: "No, it cannot."
- Supporting Evidence: Gifts typically have explicit causes for their dismissal and dispellation.

Opposing stance: "Yes, it can, or it can be determined this way by a GM due to the ambiguous nature of the effect"
- Supporting Evidence: The Word of Night states that "These gifts often require a dimly-lit area for best effect."
- Result of Evidence: The Sun Word's innate gifts, sufficient lighting, or an individual with a Torch would be permitted to dispel Welcoming the Dusk's darkness.
- Pre-Counter Argument: Liken the situation to Deception. The word of Deception's entry indicates that: "Violence, loud noises, and directly exposing themselves to guards or other vigilant sorts risks the loss of concealment."
> My Rebuttal: Veiled Step and Walking Ghost are very explicit in what dismisses or dispels their effects, and if a gift were meant to be dispelled by exterior action outside of those outlined in my previous stance—this would be explicitly indicated.
- Counter-Rebuttal Query: What occurs to the light shed by a Hero of Sun's intrinsic?
> Query Rebuttal: A 'Clash' as described by the "Conflicting Gifts" section of page 22 would take place.

I've done the best I could to translate the argument onto here.

+Kevin Crawford , if you would weigh in—your wisdom would be invaluable in this matter.

Mason Munden
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

Of course, anyone else who wants to weigh in: please feel free to do so.

It's my firm belief that on these matters, a clash would simply occur.

Jon Moyer
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

I'm inclined to say WtD creates a blob of darkness around the PC. No ordinary light source can shed light into the area of effect, nor can an ordinary light source cast light while in the area of effect.

EDIT: Actually, while a light source wouldn't be able to cast light while in the area, I would still let a light source within the area to cast light beyond the area. So if a light source illuminates a 40 foot radius, there would still be a ring-like area that's illuminated around the central 30 foot radius blob.

I would rule that Sun's innate ability to seek in the dark trumps WtD. That's okay to me, because in my opinion Night's innate ability to see in the dark trumps the AC 3 properties of Sun's Body of Burning Light (the Night PC can just close their eyes, which makes them effectively a sightless creature - YMMV, as always).

Otherwise, as you say, only a Gift-level effect can outright dispel WtD.

Mason Munden
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

+Jon Moyer Trippy. I like that.

Jon Moyer
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

+Mason Munden This doesn't have much to do with the rules discussion, but FWIW I consider WtD to essentially be Night's AC 3 Gift and, in that sense, the rough equivalent of Sun's Body of Burning Light. According to Damn Their Eyes, blinded foes suffer a -4 to melee attack rolls and essentially can't make ranged attacks. So a Night PC can wear light armor (no penalty to saves) to get AC 3, with "rider" abilities of immunity to ranged and a configurable area of darkness.

I would be pretty flexible with my rulings on how the configurable area of darkness would work, too. The Night PC doesn't have to make this huge 30 foot blob of darkness, that's just what they are entitled to. They could make a smaller area just around their person, and I'd also allow them to modulate the level of darkness from a shadow to pitch black. I'd also allow the Night PC to be invisible no matter what level of darkness they create.

This would help if the Night PC is trying to hide behind a pillar, under table, etc. and would allow the PC to be stealthy. IMO this in keeping with the spirit of the Night Word and doesn't seem especially unbalanced to me. The net game effect of this would be to get a +4 to any stealth-related check based on sight. Of course, Sun's innate ability would negate this, so the Night PC will have to rely on their own skill at avoiding detection when faced with such a foe.

Michael Blank
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

The effect can only be dispelled by divine powers. Theurgy or low magic will not affect gifts unless they explicitly say they can. The gift does not prevent things from seeing in the darkness though.

Marshall Brengle
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

📌

Ruben Navarro
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

I would say that "in darkness" and "blinded" are not the same thing every time. It can be equivalent for most cases, thou. About WtD dispelling, I would follow +Michael Blank point of Gift vs other stuff paradigm. Sun can dispel WtD IF you offensively dispel. In general let say that I would call for what is appropiatelly fun, mythical or epic in that order.

Moritz Lohmann
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

I have some points to add here:
1. Godbounds or other divine or supernatural beings associated with the 'Night' Word are may be immune against the Words own gifts.

2. Is 'Welcoming the Dusk' an offensive gift or a defensive one?
I plead for defensive; it is like an armor and no attack or direct harm comes from it.
The reason is, that Sun can only block/dispel offensive gifts. -> Ergo: No, it can't stop the gift.

3. Looking at the miracles and having decided that WtD isn't an offensive gift, the only option I see, is "Gain Armor or Defenses" because it includes 'environmental effects'.

4. A simple question, what effect does darkness do in game terms? Because there are mechanics were the opposition can be defending against its effects or where it only modifies some action numbers. Each GM ruling could be used to find a fitting counter action. So what does it do?

Moritz Lohmann
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

Okay I found a passage, that might be the answer you looking for : (p. 22, Instant Defensive Miracles, fourth paragraph)
"Only the dispeller is protected from the incoming effect. A gout of corrosive darkness might be defensively dispelled by a hero with the Sun Word or averted by one with the Night Word, but only that hero is spared the effect. His comrades next to him are affected normally."

Mason Munden
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

+Moritz Lohmann I rule that WtD makes normal archery (unaided sight) impossible to shoot into, or from within, and confers -4 on melee attacks.

Moritz Lohmann
2018-06-06T18:25:42.337Z

Yes, in that case, normal mortal foes will have a hard time to do something, but many Godbounds can gift or miracle this modifiers away.
Like attacks with an area effect (greater as WtD has) and/or without target aiming, or miracles like "Gain Armor or Defenses", see in darkness gifts and so on.
And of course good dice rolling and fitting Facts.